Drugs and enlightment

[Break]

What is your relationship to drugs? Has anybody here not ever touched drugs? I'm just interested to know whether so called recreational drugs do lead people into this way of thinking.
How do you feel you came on to this "path"? I don't mean to sound sceptical.

[~frankspeare]

I wouldn't call it a recreational drug but if you're interested in a religious sacrament which promotes enlightenment, a friend of mine reports wonderful experiences with Ayahuasca. There's tons of information about it on the web. You might begin with this article from National Geographic Magazine: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html

[gry lerfald]

i go with you on that one...i mett mother aya not long ago, and her teatcings have changed my whole life...i nerver lived before i mett her, i only existed.. i willl gladly answer any questons you might have regarding this plant and medicine called ayahuaska.. blessed be soul wild and free...:-)

[~frankspeare]

Something else you might like to check out along this thread is Terence McKenna. he's dead now, but was a brilliant, literally brilliant, ethno-botanist and psychedelic researcher. You'll find some of his stuff on Youtube and lots more available in torrents.

[Stian Froestad]

Yes! Terence McKenna was awesome! I don't necessarily agree that one has to take psychedelic drugs to experience different states of conciousness, but he did make some very cool observations. There is a video on him called 'psychedelic society' in the video department.

[~frankspeare]

Ok, first let me say that I am a literal listener. Of course one doesn't have to take psychedelic drugs to experience different states of consciousness. There are many different states of consciousness which happen all by themselves or also with the benefit of other drugs, coffee for instance.

I personally have meditated twice a day, for years, and explored other forms of consciousness expansion, but have found nothing which compares with psychedelics. In my experience, profoundly psychedelic states of consciousness have only arrived as a result of psychedelics. Terence states the same opinion and offers that spiritual teachers he has had the opportunity to question on the matter confirm that. That doesn't mean that it's true. It's just a direct report on our experience.

My opinion, and I freely acknowledge that this is only an opinion since I can't know what others experience, is that statements like "Oh you can get there by other means" come from someone having an agenda to somehow invalidate the psychedelic experience or elevate their own. It seem analogous to a priest saying that you don't have to interact with another human for sexual satisfaction. Well, yes, that's kind of true, but the satisfaction you get doesn't actually compare to the sexual union which can be experienced with another.

If I may be so direct, does your disagreement with Terence come from experience, or from theory?

I notice that the difference between theory and experience is far less... in theory... than in direct experience.

[~frankspeare]

And who is it that would seek conscious control over experiences which come to you? Who is it that has desires?

That would be the ego. The ego says "Yes, bring me other states of consciousness so that I may add them to my 'trophy wall' of that which I have conquered." But the whole point of getting to higher states of consciousness and the essential experience is that of transcending the ego.

If you can get there, through whatever means, hooray! Share your Being with us. Be a living example. We are desperate for that. But I personally find little to no value in an ego coaching me regarding the relative worth of different techniques of transcending the ego. Once again, it is like having a celibate coach me regarding sex. At best, I'm getting sophisticated theory regarding what might be true from someone who doesn't know. At worst I am getting misinformation from someone who doesn't want me to succeed.

And, lest it be taken that way, this is not an attack on you for having too much ego. I have way too much ego for my own good. So if there is blame to be had for that, I'm first in line. Here are some symptoms that one is coming from ego (taken from Take Me to Truth (Undoing the Ego), by Nouk Sanchez:
* You either judge others or perceive them as judging you.
* You react negatively to a perceived offense (with anger, defense, frustration of judgment etc.)
* You judge yourself.
* You experience seeming injustice in the form of perceived attack.
* You perceive threat or anxiety in the case of personal or worldly adversity.
* Your perceived needs appear not to be met (money, relationships, etc.)
* You experience doubt in the beneficence of your life.
* You perceive scarcity.
* You feel physical discomfort or dis-ease.

Judgment is the fuel of the ego. Guilt is its core. Most of this guilt is not observable to us; it is hidden. Where? In others! All your own unhealed guilt is hidden in everyone else. Anytime you judge another or feel attacked is when you are "projecting" your very own guilt. Remember, there is only One of us, appearing as many. "Forgiveness is the only sane response." --A Course In Miracles

[Stian Froestad]

I'm not judging psychedelic drug taking. Not at all. Im just saying that as a society, I don't think that psychedelic drugs should be flagged as the 'best' way of reaching trancended states of conciousness. But I totally agree that people should be allowed to choose for themselves what they want and no one has the right or 'should' judge them for that. As you say, judgement of others is just a reflection of yourself. I totally agree that trancending the ego is important to reach higher states of awareness and whatever means you use to get there is good. But I stand by the idea that this can be done simply through intent and meditation, though that might not be true for others.

[c a r s o n]

OK, we're cool.

[Michelle Gor]

Hi guys
Well I just have to warn of the ups and downs of the different drugs from my point of view. I experamented with pschedelic drugs as a teenager and it helped form my creative artistic side. I made great pictures after my highs. I had one spiritual eperience with a moth of all things which led me on my path into spirituality that i had strayed from. I smoked pot for 11 years and have to agree it helped me think outside the box and experience things differently the problem was for people like me it took some control over my life becoming a priority and causing severe social anxiety. Its taken me a long time to recover from the damage it has done as long term use you begin to see symptoms similar to other hard drugs so this recreational drug got out of hand. I still love it though and that my friends is the problem. I agree with the poisonous toxic effects of alcohol and I dont think pot is in any way worse for you. I am a recovering cocaine addict so I must warn people of the whole "gateway drug" thing. I dont thinkk its a gateway drug somuch as after you get over the fear of trying one drug lets say pot youre not as scared to try another. How ever my battle with drugs was aweful I must say I am proud to be where Im at now and it taught me some very valuable life lessons which made me much stronger. I am now able to help others in the situation I was in because of experience so in a way it was afterall another gift I suppose, As far as comeing on to this path I was born this way I just stayed amongst the noise and haste for a while here andd there
Peace-Michelle